andrewsurtees (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

finally, a post that allows comments. nobody's saying that none of this happened, just that it didn't necessarily happen as it was related

danjoeblue (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

I don't think your argument should cause us to totally dismiss what is written about Jesus. The context of 18:63 is the acts of Pilate. The ripple effects from Jesus were spreading far, wide & fast by Josephus' time. I think it's very unlikely that a historian would fail to mention the founder of this fast growing group in the context of Pilate- the man who was responsible for the founders crucifixion. I think it's more unlikely than not mentioning him because of some "contempt", as you said.

danjoeblue (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

Thank you. It's good to have someone who knows something about this. I grow weary of teenagers who have never even cracked Josephus who try to debate this topic. You said, "However remarking Pines is not a Christian is hardly a valid argument" My comment about Pines was a response to your earlier comment that this was "a minority sport for a few Christians." I was refuting your claim that only a "few Christians" debate this point. This was the intention of the remark. Does that make sense?

LouisPlume (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

There's no way that a Governor of a Roman Provence would release a murderer of an Imperial tax collector by an insurrectionist. This was an attack on the Emperor who was divine and and the Roman state, it would be like America letting off Osama B off. The early Christians in order to sell Christ to the Romans, couldn't very well say it was a Roman who had killed him, that would create religious consumer resistance, so they blamed it on the Jews. And look where that ended.

LouisPlume (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

Ive read some & all Josephus.Pines was a follower of Leo Strauss, he believed Religious Conservatism should be used to control society.Not saying he had an agenda, just informing you I know who you are talking about, even his politics.How ever remarking Pines is not a Christian is hardly a valid argument, maybe you could address that. Josephus's books have contempt for people who assert that they are on a mission from God, its a continues theme, then he mentions Jesus, I don't think so.

danjoeblue (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

LouisPlume- Unless you have read up on this a great deal I don't recommend getting into this with me. I am fully aware that there are still scholars that think that 18:63 is a total interpolation and VERY few who think the same of 20:200. Your remark about this being a sport for a few Christians is absurd. Shlomo Pines of Hebrew University was not a Christian but believed that the Agapian manuscript preserved the reference to Jesus in 18:63.

LouisPlume (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

Josephus's mentioning of Jesus has certainly NOT been authenticated by scholars as his words. There is still debate, but that is now a minority sport for a few Christians. Look at the contempt Josephus has for all all people who claim to have an extra spiritual relationship with God, he cant stand them. Josephus despised people who preached to the masses in the market place.

dfledermaus (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

As a coin collector, I can tell you that Pilate also issued coins with his name on them; mostly small copper pieces called prutahs. To show just how insensitive he was towards his Jewish subjects, his coins featured the implements of his pagan priesthoods. It would be hard to think of anything calculated to offend the Jews more than having to daily handle coins with pagan symbols on them. They're relatively common coins. You often see them on eBay.

TAXtheAtheist (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

Duuuuuude, Rook, get off the college drugs, duuuuuuude !!!

LegendKiller350 (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

Check out evolution-exposed. c.o.m and find out why evolution is false and nothing but a religion.